Part 4: Assessment versus Genuine Practice

Those who know me (or have been stuck in a lift with me), will be able to tell you that a giant bug-bear of mine (yes, another one!) is the (mis-) use of assessment in the on line environment. Assessment has its place, but it needs  to be part of your overall strategy, not a presumed add-on at the end of the module.

We’re up to the final category!

  1. Linear versus Forced Navigation
  2. Interaction versus Hand-Eye Coordination
  3. Engaging Visual Design versus Engaging Instructional Design
  4. Assessment versus Genuine Practice

Assessment versus Genuine Practice


What’s the problem?

I’m not confident that the question is being asked in the design phase - “do we even need an assessment?” An assessment has become a fixture in most Request For Proposals, and the response to the request is too often “Of course we can do an assessment! – so if we do an assessment – does that mean we win the tender? ”  

Let’s think about why you are asking for an assessment:

  1. Do you need a formal assessment for compliance reasons?
  2. Do you need something concrete that you can hold onto in the form of an excel spreadsheet in your next management meeting?
  3. Do you want to know that your learners have taken it all in and now have a burning desire to apply their new found knowledge with your customers?

So admittedly there haven’t been a lot of choices for assessment in the on-line environment in the past. The LMS you’re using might have a character constraint on short answer responses so they turn out looking more like a Twitter update than a well thought out response. For longer responses you just don’t have the support staff to mark up and respond with valuable feedback manually. Multiple choice questions just seemed to be the easiest option for recording consistently on an LMS.

The problem with this solution is you’re responding to your first two requirements for compliance and reporting, but if you are creating a multiple choice question assessment and hold an expectation that it will somehow prove that your learners have what it takes to be let loose on your customers – there may be a discrepancy. For a start a multiple choice question has – well multiple choices. If a customer asks your learner a question, odds are they won’t be happy with a well considered, “Ummm – is it ‘B’?”

So what do you do?

Yes, we  need an assessment

Ok, there are some instances where an assessment is required but let’s design it from the start and make sure it works!  The reality of a multiple choice assessment is that you’re testing rote recall, which actually may suit some of your learners quite well, the little smarty pants ones with a photographic memory – but the real problem is that it’s out of context – the context bit is important. You don’t want to have to make them work too hard back in their work environment to use the correct piece of information in the right situation.

  1. So one remedy is to have scenario-based questions in your assessment, something that mirrors the learner’s workplace setting as close as possible. This will take some research to make it authentic so be prepared to dedicate a little time finding out a bit more about your learner’s environment before you put mouse to PowerPoint.
  2. Herein lies a second consideration. In your poking around in the learner’s world you’ve discovered that they don’t work independently, they are actually part of a process in the wider group! A collaborative assessment task is just the ticket for mirroring a team work environment; and this can be completed for local and virtual teams with the right design. Here it really can pay to extend your conversations in the design phase to do a task analysis and create a simulation that requires group participation.

But Nic! Isn’t that cheating! You may call it cheating, but I call it ‘collaboration’ and it’s happening with your assessments whether you like it or not. In so many meetings I have encountered the desperate cries of, “They just print out the questions and pass them around the team, helping each other out, I mean what do you call that?”, I respond with, “Sounds like you’ve got yourself a cohesive team collaboratively problem solving!”

No, it’s like we’ve seen the light – we really don’t need an assessment!

So your module has no compliance requirement, the learner just needs to be able to transfer their training back out there into the workplace. I know you have an LMS, but this time you could score on completion rather than a pass mark (no that is not an open invitation to engage forced navigation!)

It sounds like your learners just need an environment where they can screw up. To do this we need to stop coddling our learners – we too often work within a culture where it’s not ok to make mistakes or to be incorrect. The problem with this is that rather than admit a mistake – people cover their tracks! If learners have the opportunity to make mistakes and practice in a simulated environment, we can minimise those same mistakes happening in in real time with your customers.

Yes, that’s my advice, just  make screwing up part of your learning design and support your learner through it. Simulate that cold sweat of not knowing the right response – and then steer them diligently in the right direction. It’s a great way for learners to not only understand the best path to take, but also why it matters.

By offering a broad range of scenarios with feedback, learners can practice as much or as little as they need to, it really is a personalised experience for learners who absorb information at different rates and bring varying levels of prior knowledge.

What do you think? Do we always need an assessment? Have you  seen a system that works well sans assessment?

Part 3: Engaging Visual Design versus Engaging Instructional Design

In the last instalment I rabbited on about meaningful computer/human interactions and trying oh so hard not to give your learner’s RSI! This time let’s bang on a bit about ‘engagement’…

So there were four categories on the day (here’s what we’re up to):

  1. Linear versus Forced Navigation
  2. Interaction versus Hand-Eye Coordination
  3. Engaging Visual Design versus Engaging Instructional Design
  4. Assessment versus Genuine Practice

Engaging Visual Design versus Engaging Instructional Design


What’s the problem?

The problem is that every company wants an ‘engaging’ module – but I think there may be a discrepancy between what people are asking for, what they are expecting and what engaging actually is!

I’m going to explore this concept using an explanation of visual design and instructional design – both equally important, but there can be an issue with the order you choose or the emphasis that we place on one or the other.

So let’s talk about what happens when you start a project with the visual design in mind:

When the focus is on what the module looks like versus what what it can deliver from an instructional perspective odds are four weeks after your project kick-off you’re still looking at colour palettes and photo stock images – while your learners have filled the void and taught themselves how to use your new system (which isn’t always a bad thing, but you want consistency right?).

Focusing purely on visuals, it becomes difficult not to get bogged down by subjective opinion and miss the point completely;

“That would look really cool if the button was blue”

…overrides the more productive opinion…

“That would be a helpful way to present information to ensure the learner has adequate practice in using the system, increases customer satisfaction and decreases calls to the IT help desk – by the way I think that button would look better blue”.

A flashy interface (without a solid instructional strategy) is also not a quick fix for making your learners like eLearning. Sure that Flash introduction and those animated cartoon characters will get them excited and draw them in, but your learners are smart (you hired them right?) and without a clear, considered purpose – it’s just a pretty module with no substance to back it up…

This also reigns true for technology. It’s been decided far too many times that we need to build in HTML 4 or 5 so we can enable smartphone and tablet usage before the instructional strategy is even a blip on the radar.

Once you start talking to your learners or SMEs and hear the words; “we’re on the road 4 out of 5 days a week”, or “being away from the office it’s hard to find the information we need”, or “I need to be able to walk up to my customer and show them how it works” – THEN you can look at mobile strategies as part of your overall solution.

If the work experience kid said that iPads are cool so you ordered 50 of them – this is not a strategy.

So, using mobile for any of the following reasons is NOT cool:

  • “But my employees are all Gen Y – I need to reach them” (they have perfectly good PCs and laptops)
  • “They’re always on their smart phone and iPad-ma-jigs – we can use that!” (they’re looking at firewall blocked pictures on Facebook of Jenny having tequila shots off a barman in Mexico, not eLearning that they can access on their computer)
  • “They can learn anywhere now!” (This is code for ‘now we can own them outside of work hours as well’, and is generally accompanied with cartoon style evil manager rubbing their hands together gleefully.)

So what do you do?

I can hear you – stop being a buzz kill Nic – Look, I LOVE a module that shocks and inspires me visually, but I also love a module that makes me think and allows me to explore and contribute something meaningful back into the workplace. I’m just saying – instructional design first – then visual design – It’s about striking the right balance.

Just be super attuned that if conversations begin on interface design, technologies, island themed concepts – prior to establishing the audience, business needs, learner needs and content to be covered, you’re not addressing the requirements that got you the budget in the first place. You will need to steer the conversation back in the right direction pronto! You too may feel like a buzz kill – and no-one wants to crush the working group’s enthusiasm, so try scheduling in a creative workshop and send them an invite to keep them motivated and focussed on the right thing at the right time.

What do you think? Do your learners talk positively about their cool new comic book inspired modules – but still can’t talk intelligently to your customer about your product, service etc…?

Can engaging visual design alone get your learning objectives over the line?

Part 2: Interaction versus Hand-Eye Coordination

Last time I rambled nonsensically about Linear versus Forced Navigation, this time we will have a closer look at the second ‘goat getting’ category from my AIDC 2012 talk last month.

So there were four categories on the day:

  1. Linear versus Forced Navigation
  2. Interaction versus Hand-Eye Coordination
  3. Engaging Visual Design versus Engaging Instructional Design
  4. Assessment versus Genuine Practice

Interaction versus Hand-Eye Coordination

What’s the problem?

Here I would like to expand on the concept of incessant clicking. We’ve all been guilty of it yeah you know it; “Oh my god the client says there’s too much text on screen (but they refuse to cut any of it down) – we need a click to reveal list for these 10 items, let’s pop some hover over boxes on that page and this is going to need an accordion.”

The humanity! The accordion! The evil ‘interaction’ that allowed me as an ID to fit an entire A4 page of text on one screen with little tabs that folded out and then closed so you could click on another one…I still can’t get clean.

I agree that click to reveals and hover overs are methods to assist with the human/computer interaction – but without a confirmed contribution to the learning (and no people, not fitting an A4 page worth of text on screen! It may benefit your budget and project schedule, but rarely the learner) – the only thing guaranteed for your learners is RSI – and another reason to feed the ever growing collective groan at the mention of online learning.

So what do you do?

So there are are a couple of approaches you might take (and there are plenty more, just take some time to think creatively!):

1) Allow your learners to interact with what is happening on screen – but rather than a content dump, allow them the slow reveal as a story unfolds.
  • Use a multiple choice question to branch the story so the learner feels they have some control (we all know they don’t really – but there’s no reason they can’t dream of freedom).
  • Use mouse roll-overs to allow the learner to review all possible outcomes of situation before proceeding – you might have three hotspots that on hover over, the learner can see the end of the story and they are enticed to click to see how the character ended up that way (or better still, what they can do to affect a better outcome). This technique is really great for behavioural topics.
2) If it’s content they need to read/access – for the love of Moses stop making them work for it!
  • Learners will naturally (maybe even voluntarily – le gasp) interact with content that is relevant to their role, meaningful to their quest to further their knowledge – and maybe most importantly, written well.
  • It really is worth taking time to work on the content, so the learner has a positive easy to use experience. I don’t know how other IDs feel out there, but I get a little jack of my writing time getting hijacked by development time because the focus is on what the module looks like rather than what it can do (I will harp on about that a little more in the next instalment).
  • Don’t reinvent the wheel either, if the information exists somewhere else (and meets the above criteria) use the module to; summarise key points, show interrelations, demystify, guide, highlight a key message,  where it fits into the big picture, or (my favourite) how it relates directly to the learner’s role.

3) I also want you ponder upon the concept of  a solid instructional design that considers the way learners access information – if content is organised in such a way that allows learners to access exactly what they need, when they need it, in the minimum number of clicks – is this a positive computer/human interaction? Now, that was kind of rhetorical but just in case- the correct answer is actually, hell yeah!

Have your learner wanting to click to learn, rather than click to check off another module on your LMS.

What do you think? What is your record of clickables on a page? Seen something you loved?

Part 1: Linear versus Forced Navigation

On supplying the slides from LearnX I thought something that was missing (other than my obvious verbal ramblings) – it was my obvious written ramblings.

So there were four categories on the day:

  1. Linear versus Forced Navigation
  2. Interaction versus Hand-Eye Coordination
  3. Engaging Visual Design versus Engaging Instructional Design
  4. Assessment versus Genuine Practice

For ease of review, I will pop up a few more notes on each of these categories each week, and maybe even start some lively debate! Let’s start at the beginning then and progress through sequentially (a little ID humour there)

Linear versus Forced Navigation

Click for full slideshow

What’s the problem?

Now, I’m the first person right there with you punching the air for thinking differently and outside the box (I’m currently working on a module with a client that has no next button – we didn’t plan NOT to have one, it just wasn’t required in the design), but I feel that ‘linear’ as a navigation style has received a bit of a bum wrap over the years – really it’s just a bit misunderstood…

In my view linear has adopted a negative connotation and become associated with ‘cookie cutter’ instructional design fuelled by restricted budgets and severely lean project timelines.

The result is another one of those repetitive page turners that make you regret ‘moving with the times’ in the first place and actually crave a text book (so you can at least enjoy the smell of the crisp pages). You’ve all experienced what I’m talking about – text on page, click something, next button – more text, click next – forgot to to click every square inch of the page to find the right combination to reveal the next button – there it is – next button enabled.

Yes, this is linear – but it’s the pointlessness of the page turning and the forced navigation – that feeling of moving forward, but not actually actually getting anywhere – that makes us want to poke out our eyes with knitting needles. Sure you’ve achieved your deadline and created something within budget – but think back to your objectives (no the other ones – think further than cost and time). Have you succeeded?

So what do you do?

Don’t discount linear navigation until you know your audience.

Choosing a navigation style should take into consideration the competency level of your audience. Linear navigation for example, has its place in mastery building where learners new to a topic e.g. teaching new inductees at a bank how to use a financial model, are given the space to build on simple ideas to more complex principles.

We all know that our audience learn at different paces and in different ways, we’re constantly trying to find ways to deal with various ‘learning styles’; this person prefers visual representations, this one is a ‘do-er’. I think the one thing we have forgotten is the task – some topics just lend themselves to a particular style i.e. systems training is far more effective if learners can get in there and practice and make mistakes versus ‘watch’ a demonstration.

If used correctly, the linear model of mastery allows the learner a tailored experience with access to the basics and support (and feedback), and then paced by individual progress – the ability to build on these basic principles to more complex ones – with as much practice as THEY require.

Don’t let forced navigation steal the identity of linear navigation – it’s kind of all right after all, if used in the right context.

What do you think? Have you seen a linear course that you enjoyed (or at least didn’t hate!)?

LearnX Slides

There were a few people who requested my slides from the LearnX Australian Instructional Design Conference last Wednesday (21/3/2012).

I secretly think you all just wanted the slides for the cool pictures…but just you wait, for everyone who views these slides – I will be there standing behind you going, ‘oooh, yes that slide – that was about making mistakes, it’s all about designing your learning to encourage mistakes, foster learning and provide adequate feedback…’

Creepy? Yes, it is.

Necessary? Well, probably not – but I do like a chat, so if you would like to discuss further my details are right here on this here blog.

I’ve just added some extra notes to the slides so you don’t need me prattling on, so make sure you view full screen – and enjoy!

Thanks to all the lovely supportive people on the day too :) I was overwhelmed by the level of passion to make a difference in this industry.

Come and visit me at LearnX

Hi there,

Let me know if you’re thinking of attending LearnX in Sydney this March 21.

I’m on the bill at 2.30pm  for a 20 minute bit I have affectionately called ‘I want an engaging 30 minute interactive module with an assessment’.

It’s basically a tongue in cheek view of the eLearning industry from the perspective of an instructional designer. Don’t fear though, it’s not all ranting – I hopefully also provide a little insight into knowing your way around some misrepresented eLearning terminology.

Head down for a yarn







Click the ball of yarn for the full LearnX line-up…

Hopefully see you there.


Compliance Challenge: Mediocrity, threatened and threatening?

I’ve just finished reading references 2-4. on my Reading List, an interesting group of articles with a focus on diversity in the form of ‘talent’ and their acceptance (or lack there of) in the workplace.

1. Assimilation, the enemy of diversity?

In my last post, I pondered whether bullying might be the natural enemy of diversity – but that’s not the half of it (well maybe it is, I don’t have exact percentages). Often the response of the bullying victim is to attempt to ‘blend in’ rather than stand out. Vickers, 2008 states “The problem for ‘different’ workers is they they might look, behave, think, feel or do things differently from other workers. In a workplace that demands – even without realising it – homogeneity in workers, this is a dangerous situation for all concerned.”

Think about all that money you just spent on a headhunter to bring in the best of the best to join your team, only to have them lost in the crowd – along with their new innovative ideas that had the potential to significantly shift your market share. The simple response to this is that you can’t address these issues with the traditional policy based training that we see so abundantly in organisations. In some cases we need a ‘cultural overhaul’ element before any type of policy is even broached – which leads me to my next point.

2. It’s ‘unlawful’ to discriminate…well, alright then

Syed and Kramer, 2010 state; “In practice, anti-discrimination laws have had a limited effect in facilitating cultural and attitudinal change in organisations (Pyke, 2005, p.15)”. This point is  actually the reason I started looking into compliance training in the first place. We see plenty of clever examples in the workplace where an instructional designer has taken the time to carefully construct scenarios with consequences and characters. While they tend to address a practical element of applying policy-based behaviour, I believe these still lack the basic human ‘connection’ that awakens an individual’s personal moral code (and some need to look deeper than others) and enable them to feel slightly uncomfortable. Syed and Kramer, 2010 support this, “…collective or group identity is generally ignored in organisations, with employers’ focus more upon legal compliance issues.”

So who are we really protecting? My ideal bullying and harassment solution teeters on the edge of the ‘uncomfortable’ so that the bully may begin to feel the remorse of their actions – and if that’s not possible – then the other 99.9% of the workplace population feels moved to recognise it and act on it.

3. Why can’t we all just get along? 

I think maybe my pick of the list was the Reuven Kotleras article, a highly gifted individual who uses his study to share personal experiences of ‘mobbing’ in the workplace. Mobbing is basically a form of bullying that takes pride in the ‘wearing down’ of an individual – often gifted or different from the others in the current work environment. Now, this sounds really severe but I want to share a story with you about a friend of mine who was being bullied repeatedly in the workplace and decided to confide in their manager – what was the outcome? The manager sat the bully and the bullied down, talked about their personal differences and proceeded to administer a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator assessment.

Now when somebody comes to you and starts with, “I can’t work with that person” – we need to be certain of the end of that sentence before we start looking at a solution. For example, “I can’t work with that person, he works on the document himself and I don’t get to see it until review time”, is very different from “I can’t work with that person, he has an almost desperate urge to crush and eliminate me by continuously harassing and ostracizing me over an extended period of time.” I know the difference is subtle – but I think you can make out that one is interpersonal conflict and the second falls pretty comfortably under bullying.

From a training point of view, there are many themes we can get from this; the two main ones though for me are; 1) the need to define levels of conflict, yes interpersonal conflict exists, is no less serious and needs to be dealt with – but very differently to a bullying situation; and 2) it isn’t enough to just ‘administer’ the same compliance training to employees and managers. Managers need to be tuned into the warning signs of  bullying – however subtle and know the right thing to do in such a situation.

Note: I am going to try my super best not to leave that much time between posts again. I’m so sorry to my lovely dedicated subscribers – (all marvelous five of you!) I’ve had a mountain of work coming in and went on holidays for a spell – yes, yes hardly grounds for pity…

Compliance Challenge: Bullying, the Enemy of Diversity?

I’ve just finished reading reference 1. on my Reading List, an interesting article outlining Bullying and Harassment as a major health and safety hazard across Australia.

1. Is the policy in place sufficient?

I’ve created many bullying modules in my time, and completed possibly as many as an employee – and I was surprised that it was covered under the OHS ACT (which as of 2011/2012 is being ‘harmonised’ Australia-wide).  From my experience I have always seen bullying and harassment covered as a separate issue to OHS in a training environment, so I bought into the debate questioning whether bullying and harassment can adequately be covered under an OHS Act – is it robust enough to deal with the psychological side-effects associated with bullying and harassment? I plan to do a little more research on the policy changes from late last year on this one.

2. Are you supporting your diversity initiatives?

The article also recognises that we are working in a knowledge industry – good people are a commodity, differentiation of  employees creates a competitive edge that is sought and valued by employers. This explains the increase in budgets for detailed diversity plans within organisations. While these initiatives are exactly what organisations need to grow and improve their market share – it’s acknowledged that bullying and harassment is the natural enemy of diversity. Think about who is generally bullied – those who are different to the norm. It is therefore equally important to review bullying and harassment process and policy as it is to promote diversity. I plan to review the link between  these two topics (and others, such as Code of Conduct and OHS) when considering the overall module approach.

3. Do women have a lot to answer for? 

The other component of this article that saddens me more than anything is that of women and covert bullying. In my career I can count three major experiences with bullies, and two of them were women, placed in a role of authority – and when given an opportunity to mentor, they instead created extremely stressful work environments; from outright exclusion to the appropriation of ideas. It is then a consideration whether training initiatives need to cater for gender differences (aka men tend to be more overt i.e. yelling, while women are a little more strategic about it).

4. Does tenure play a role? 

The final point I will elaborate on here is that of ‘who is the bully?’ Your bullying and harassment module generally makes up part of your induction suite, you want to get the message out early that bullying will not be tolerated. Yet the article focuses on a study utilising employees with 6-10 years tenure within their organisations. McGrath in this article suggests that there is a, “…’bullying comfort zone’ perhaps afforded by both stability of employment and distance from monitoring in larger organisations.” Is prolonged exposure to a bullying and harassment policy enough to get the message across? it appears the answer may be no. A consideration then for this project is to look at learning opportunities dependent on length of service. Is there a different message that is required for new starters versus those who have been in the role for a specified time and may be a little too comfortable?

I would love to hear your  experiences with any of the above points; are you female who has been bullied before? Was the experience reflective of the points raised in this article? Do you think the OHS Act (even with its recent changes) is sufficient to protect those who are bullied?

Ok, back to reading!

Compliance Challenge: Bullying and Harassment

As I like to embark on a well rounded study, the first phase  ’an educated assessment’  is all about getting elbow deep in the existing research. I’ve got one million (slight exaggeration) reports, case studies and research articles on everything from the bully’s perspective to abuse of power to corporate psychopaths. I think already with the range of articles I’ve found, we can see this topic is hardly going to be cut and dried.

So I’m going to do the hard bit – I’ve got a smidgen over 500 pages to read (and that’s just the journal articles), once I’ve got my ‘academic’ on – I plan to delve even deeper into current Australian statistics to satisfy my right brain, and news articles, stories and personal accounts to satisfy my left (as I am a glutton for punishment, if anyone wants to use the comment section to point me in the direction of some great resources – please do so!).

As I read through each source, I will post in my reading list and provide a brief summary of the article. Ideally the final product will be a comprehensive literature review that I can use as a firm point of reference for the stories I collect and the eventual instructional strategy.

The ‘I don’t hate compliance training’ challenge

Is the ‘bad taste’ learners have for online learning potentially misdirected?

I’ve had a lot of conversations with learners over the years – although rarely in a workplace setting. It’s amazing how fired up people can get in an an elevator, in the ladies bathroom, or during large group dinner engagements. Allow me to demonstrate:

Slightly tipsy neighbour at a steak house: …and what do you do Nicole?

Me: I’m an instructional designer [insert about 20 minutes of explaining what I do...i.e. so you're in IT? Ohhh, you're a teacher? Marketing?]

Slightly tipsy neighbour at a steak house: Oh, eLearning – yeah, I hate eLearning

Me: Um, ok – what is it exactly that you hate about it? 

Slightly tipsy neighbour at a steak house: Urgh the incessant reading online, the patronising assessment questions, just hours and hours of compliance policy jargon really

Me: Wait, so you hate eLearning or your current compliance training online? 

Slightly tipsy neighbour at a steak house: Well, eLearning – our company doesn’t  do any other training online

These conversations are not a one off. It seems to me that compliance as a subject area has a high level of corporate demand online  - yet manages to be the least loved. Why is this? 

I believe that despite massive budgets being dedicated to the build of online compliance programs – the focus is all wrong. If I had a dollar for every time I read or heard in conversation ‘tick a box’ in reference to compliance training, well I’d be sitting here in the Gucci velour track suit pants rather then the Bonds ones. Despite compliance training attracting the largest audience within organisations, there is still minimal focus on creating meaningful learning experiences for employees.

Let’s see if this is congruent with your perception: All too often we throw a policy (or ten)  at a new person in the form of an online module. It might contain a multitude of text, a boat load of legal jargon and no doubt an almost exhaustive supply of stock images featuring people in Hugo Boss suits and expensive dental work with their head in their hands. We then make them sit through that for 30 minutes (or gasp – longer!), then once we’ve established a false sense of security and they think it’s all over – we throw a superfluous 30 question assessment at them with no learning feedback – and then, the encore – we make it a requirement to renew their vows every 1-2 years (and tie it into their performance review).

That’s not the work of an educator driving the passion for learning, it’s the work of a super-villain!

If an organisation takes a ‘compliance’ or ‘check the box’ approach to Human Resource Management policies – then so too will your learners. It’s little wonder why, as the learner (with their final shred of will to live) logs out of the LMS – and can’t make the human connection between the policy they have just been bombarded with and the actions required of them to reflect desired behaviours.

If we want our valued learners to enjoy and see the benefit in all online learning experiences – then we need to rise to the compliance challenge.  I therefore have set myself the challenge of transforming compliance content into a meaningful online learning experience – starting with Bullying and Harassment.

Ok, below is the rough plan. As I venture through these tasks I will share my learning with you and hopefully not bore you to death with the process before I’ve wowed you with the result!